Tuesday, March 13, 2007

A God That Exists

Isn't it funny how many religious people mock Hindus for believing that COWS are sacred?! They brag about having a God that is more powerful and more thoughtful and stuff... I can't help myself but laugh!! Even if those Hindus think COWS are GOD, at least we know that their God does exist!!

PS: Hindus don't actually worship cows - This is a common misconception

39 comments:

7aki Fadi said...

HA HA HA @ Hindus think COWS are GOD, at least we know that their God does exist!!

You couldn't be more right.

Qwaider قويدر said...

Existence is one thing. A god that dies and shits and feeds like an Animal is below someone who thinks of an omnipotent god that is above all of this

Look, this arguement can never be won either way. Does god exist? Does god not exist? There isn't enough evidence either way. So relax!

Devil's Mind said...

The point is, a God may or may not exist according to who you think God is. So if an atheist tells a Hindu that his God (ie. Cows) don't exist, he'd be nuts!

So atheism is NOT an unconditional "God does NOT exist" statement. Thinking of "God does NOT exist" as an absolute is wrongful (As in the case of a God that is a Cow)!

Some people wrongfully think that atheists believe that God does NOT exist, while in fact atheists admit the possibility of existence of God!! It just depends on who you think God is!!

The Observer said...

hehehehe, that is funny.

Why don't you clear out this misconception to the blogsphere? People here really believe that Hindus have cows as their Gods!

M Kilany said...

I suggest you read a book called Big Bang by Simon Singh Former BBC producer and science writer... the book is a bestselling title in the US b...

U will come to know all the different points of view on the origin of the Universe... From Ancient Greek and Egyptian theories to this date... It's a scientific book not something that is religious in any sense... Its more of an educational book...

Packed with evidence proving the origin started from a single point, the evidence is so overwhelming that Einshtein did comfess he was wrong in his assumptions of a static universe...

Read without prejudice and compare that to the holy Quran script... و كانتا رتقا ففتقناهما

I know you're trying to find peace in your theory of no God... but you should look for the truth at heart... And it doesn't hurt if you're not so offensive with your comments on people who are following any religion...

U can check the review on Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/Big-Bang-Origin-Universe-P-S/dp/0007162219/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-0141274-3587006?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173855078&sr=8-1

If you can't find the book in Jordan please leave a comment in here and I will give you my own copy to read...

Q said...

"at least we know that their God does exist!!"....It is indeed very funny. I find it quite interesting how people are so desperate in their search for a god that they're willing to just overlook obvious evidence, both physical and logical, that says otherwise.

"but you should look for the truth at heart"....You can never find the truth by following your heart. All you'll get is what you want to believe, rather than what's actually true.

M Kilany said...

I never meant it as you said it... not by following your heart, why would I give you a scientific book to read if I wanted you to find it in your heart!!!

I meant that you should look for the truth with all your senses... not just claim to want to know the truth...

as for your statement "they're willing to just overlook obvious evidence, both physical and logical, that says otherwise." This is exactly the opposite... All logical and physical evidence points toward God...

Devil's Mind said...

M Kilany, maybe before you go give evidence that God exists, it would be better to know who (or what) is your God?!

** Is it what created this world?! - If so, then guess you god exists.

** Is it the first cause?! - Also, guess that exists too.

** Is it capable of doing anything and everything (ie. omnipotent)?! - If so, could your God create a rock that it cannot lift?

M Kilany said...

word games, there are endless debates on similar questions... it takes articles and articles but in short... Yes I believe in a God that can do anything and everything... as for your rock question the question itself is flawed... A rock that cannot be lifted by such a God is no longer a rock, by defenition... it is something that has more power than God... so your question rephrased properly would be... "Can a God who is able to do everything create something that has more power than God?" again the only thing that has more power than God is obviously a God... so can a God create a God... My response to that is that the question itself is flawed because by definition a God cannot be created... Anyway, such debates take too much time and lead no where in most cases... but if you believe in a God, then tell me what kind of God do you believe in?

Devil's Mind said...

I would define God as "the first cause". The thing that caused this world to exist...

But defining the concept of God, does not mean that I believe in it, or claim that it exists.

Logically, the problem of first cause poses itself strongly as a hard problem, and God is a hypothesized solution to this problem. Is there a solution to the problem of first cause?! I don't really know if the problem of first cause exists, but if such a solution exists, I would call it "God"!

M Kilany said...

Zeid,
I'm trying to follow you but I can't...
So you're not sure there is a problem of first cause to this universe... It is proven that this world is not static... Astrologists have watched the movement of stars and galaxies and they found out that they are moving away from a single point in time, it is no question that the universe kick started from a single point...
Then there is the theory of thermal balance (equilibrium) which is quite simple... I'm sure you've heard it before, if you put a hot thing and a cold thing in the same room eventually the hot and cold would reach a state of balance... if the univerise started from infinity then no matter how much heat there is it should have gotten into a state of equilibrium...
I thought you already stated in your last comment that "** Is it what created this world?! - If so, then guess you god exists." So I assumed that you believed that something created this universe... maybe your problem is finding which religion OR concept suits you best... I was in your shoes once, its not easy... I read the holy books and read about budhism among other stuff... but that's not the matter at hand...

So anyway, I'm not sure I understood your last comment... Perhaps, you can phrase it in a simpler manner... My understanding is that you believe in what caused the (first cause) or at least that there was some power that started the whole thing... Is this assumption accurate, please be patient...

Devil's Mind said...

I said that I know that there is the problem of first cause, but I cannot be sure a solution for that problem exists.

It is reasonable to deduce that there is "something" that created this universe. No-one is disagreeing about that!!

The problem is, some religions (Abrahamic religions in particular) seem so confident of their answers, that God has spoken to them!! Thats totally absurd!!

There are reasonable reasons to believe that "something" created this universe (AKA God). But [in my opinion] there is absolutely no good reason for that God to open a communication channel with humans on this ball of dirt (AKA earth).

M Kilany said...

ok... so if there is a creator and obviously we agree that there is one... why is it absurd that this creating force would point out to the created what is the purpose of this creation?!

I think this would qualify for a good reason to open a communication channel with humans... The creating force obviously had interest in creating us and all other creatures I find it more logical to at least communicate what is required of them... Why would any force bother to create such a system if it never intended on using it (if the term is right)...

Another thing is that, those people who said that God communicated with them... are people who are known for their honesty and integrity by almost everyone in their time, even their rivals... This is why people believed them in the first place... that too qualifies for a good reason, its not absolutely absurd and I'de appreciate it if you would use other terms that are not offensive in this discussion... e.g. illogical or unscientific... Instead of absurd...

Devil's Mind said...

Since when do forces speak or reason?!

If someone tell you that the force of gravity talked to them, and gave them commands to follow... How much would that make sense to you?!

A force is just that: A Force!! It doesn't have feelings, emotions, bother, or reason... A force won't go ask people to "worship" it!

Its like saying, yesterday the force of gravity was upset from me because I lied, so the gravitation acceleration changed from 9.81 to 0 as a punishment!! I seriously don't think things work like that!!

M Kilany said...

Seriously,
I can't believe you're driving the discussion in this direction... word games again, A force can only be formed from an entity and with a cause.... We are not discussing force itself it is what caused this force to exist in the first place... a force cannot be formed without a starter or a cause, we agreed earlier that something created this universe... Its totally different from gravity and its a misleading example...

You compare gravity to an entity that created the universe from nothing...

Honestly, tell me which scenario do you believe in...
The universe was created by an entity that has no judgement, no will, so the universe was just sitting all in one tiny spot condensed and suddenly a force came out of no where and started the world we live in... and this force and this tiny condensed matter itself just sat there and came from nothing... ?!?

No_Angel said...

simply we do not know :D
sorry for jumping in here like this, but i guess i can see some of your linguistic post here :P

let me try to facilitate what i think is meant here.
word "god" use by MK is a reflection of a being (what ever the discription is but since we hold that the highest being is human so we compare it to that)
what devil views "god" as is an existence, i am not trying to put words in his mouth but i might venture and say its the universe whether the impetus for what we call universe now is real or not we can't really tell, it doesn't require any influence from a sentient being to cause something to happen in this universe and the universe is not sentient. Atleast thats what i get from the discussion.

as for the absurdity of creating a channel between the created and the creater is then again its either the image of a pupeteer or humanizing what is not human.

Simply its a dead end discussion IMHO

on the other cows are holy they are not god in our sense of the word they are monotheistic in a complex way (not read much about Hinduism but thats the headline i got)

ENJOY

Fadi Malian said...

I have a question for MK, you base our belief on "those people who said that God communicated with them... are people who are known for their honesty and integrity by almost everyone in their time, even their rivals".

Who said that? the books their followers wrote? or the people killed by some of them? or those killed in their names after that? My point, is many claimed to receive messages from GOD or other superpowers or so, but those who managed to survive and to gain power due to many reasons (not among them being honest and right) became known as prophets, and the others who failed became the liars (like Musailamah) or forgotten. Those who succeeded and became prophets in the eyes of their followers (volunteer or forced followers) wrote with their followers the history. Did we receive an authentic book written by “Abu Jahel” to know his opinion in the prophet of his time? We know everything about “Abu Jahel” through the literature of Muslims not the other party, right? So we can not scientifically establish the authenticity of those stories since they are all carried by people biased to one side and not to the other. But thanks to human nature, and to changes of “virtues” overtime, many stories that were considered positive and carried to prove the wisdom and quality of prophets are now considered bad and some time crimes. The list is long to fit here.

One time I was reading an essay in a blog about how the prophet of islam would have reacted to cartoons etc. And the author gave some stories about how prophet dealt with people in a nice way, such as his treatment to his jewish neighbor who was bad to him but the prophet was very nice in return, etc. What kills me in these stories how people deceive others and take things out of context. What about “Bani Nadeer”? when the prophet ordered the killing of all men and the enslaving of all women and kids? It is like saying how nice Hitler was because he was vegetarian (he was :) ). Enough said.

Fadi Malian said...

M Kilany, I hope you will not take the previous comment as an insult to you or islam or the prophet, the whole point is to build a better understanding for all, not just requesting that others understand our point of view and religion without making an effort to understand theirs and their view on ours. It is just a discussion, and I hope you will take it that way, though discussion can be harsh especially on such a topic.

M Kilany said...

Fadi Malian,

First of all my belief isn't based on communication to honest people only, there are many factors that blend in… I'd love to say them all but I'm already writing a long comment.

Another thing is when you want to make an accusation you should have proof to such accusations, calling people liars and dishonest requires some kind of basis, when you have this basis we can discuss it in detail… making your point of view a fact without proof isn't moral nor scientific…

What you've said might have been true if the followers and believers of such a religion considered lying as something acceptable if they were defending their faith... However, in Islam you will see, if you read enough 7adith that if someone lies in the name of the prophet then he has reserved a seat in hell...

I'm sure you are well aware of the harsh conditions made for those who wrote history and "Hadith" in Islam, there is a whole science that exists only in Islam to check if the writers or tellers have enough credibility to pass on those teachings, some of the criteria is (great memory, honesty, following Islam in all life's sides, the list goes on and on)
If what you believe what you just stated with respect to history, then how do you know that anything had happened in the past, did Palestine really belonged to us or was this story manifested by the elders...

History is passed on by people, and there are mistakes but its illogical to accept that a huge group of people who lived their whole lives and even lost it for defense of a religion that forbade lying would do something against it in such a manner "lying"... There are honest people in this world...

As for the incident you mentioned of killing all the men and so on, this is not accurate, the man who ordered the sentence was Sa3d ben Mu3ath, the Jews themselves appointed him because he had a history of friendship with them before Islam, and he knew their religion... his order came from the Old Testament... and yes the prophet did approve it... The whole situation is taken out of context, It wasn't even with Bani Nadeer (if I remember correctly), it was with Bani Quraitha at the battle of the "trench" when Bani Quraitha betrayed their word and tried to attack the Muslim Madina from behind where only women and children resided...

By the way, the hadith with the Jew neighbor is a fake one... you can check it out on some websites for authentication...

I'm already late for Friday prayer... I hope we can someday meet cause this is really taking so much time and effort...

Devil's Mind said...

Yes, I think GOD defined as the first cause is something that has no judgment or will.

The GOD that religions claim to be is so much human-like in a disturbing way - a way that makes it obvious that its something fabricated by humans. Probably humans who were so optimistic to give it characteristics of super-power, super-knowledge, and stuff...

Some characteristics given to that GOD are self-contradicting, which shows that that GOD image was created to impress fellow humans, not to be realistic.

I am not playing with words, language itself is misleading, so I just need to show you that in discussions about GOD people need to realize the diversity of what a word like GOD could mean.

M Kilany said...

Zeid,

We are obviously heading no where, but I felt that you wished for an answer that would have eased your mind... either way, whether there is a God as claimed by religion or not... an answer that maybe I couldn't present properly because we are lost in misconception and there are probably a million questions that you need answered before you come to that conclusion and this is very very difficult in a post and comment conversation...

I will leave you to your thoughts hoping that someday you will find someone who can sit with you to discuss every question that you have... Maybe that person will be "YOU" cause belief usually comes the inside, extensive reading and self exploration... We somehow believe our selves more than anything else... but I leave you with a few questions and I hope that you will read my post on Big Bang, I'm preparing it right now and will post it in the next few days...

Is their a probability that God as religion dictates exists?

A possibility that cause and effect applies to this universe?

Ever heard of the "Firing Squad Scenario" by canadian philosopher John Leslie? check it out... Maybe I'll post it after fiishing the Big Bang post...

Devil's Mind said...

"Is their a probability that God as religion dictates exists?" - At least NOT EXACTLY as they describe him.

Could there be a "Super-power" that judges humans?! Could there be a God that would communicate with us?! Guess the answer is YES! There can be such a thing.

But I think (and you probably would disagree), if such a God judges humans, then that God cannot be a just\fair God. I would consider a religion that states both that God will judge us and is fair as a self-contradicting one! (As i said, this is a debatable issue, but I have good reasons to think that judgment and justice are contradicting.)

M Kilany said...

Guess you are right about one thing... I disagree with you...

Except for the time when you said "It is reasonable to deduce that there is "something" that created this universe. No-one is disagreeing about that!!"

As for judging being unfair... If you believe in the statement you said earlier that something created this universe then who are we to tell this power what is fair and what is not... This power is free to do what ever it wants with its creation regardless of what we think... It sets the standards for fair and not fair... It's only logical that "the power" knows better...

Devil's Mind said...

"This power is free to do what ever it wants with its creation regardless of what we think... " - This sentense is basically the rule of the jungle.. The powerful gets to do what he wants. Sure, such a God is likely to have such a power and therefore can judge us as he wants, but the last time I checked the law of the jungle is not preached byt Abrahamic religions as non-moral?!

If the law of the jungle is the basis of God's judgement, how can you say that he is fair to deny the rule of the jungle for humans, while allowing it to himself?!

M Kilany said...

It's not about who is powerful, let me give you an example, we as humans go for human judges to decide what is fair and what is not... we might disagree and we might agree with their decision... but if there is a judge who knows the human spirit more than any other judge, one who is honest, hears everything and sees everything, knows everything then he would be the perfect judge... We would all seek that judge and appoint him as the one to judge all... why seek other judges of lower qualifications... now if you add that this judge created human beings and everything else in their lives, he is the only most qualified to make sense of what is fair and what is not...

If you completed the paragraph I wrote you will read "It sets the standards for fair and not fair... It's only logical that "the power" knows better..."

And the rule of the jungle, doesn't qualify as an example, in the jungle the powerful didn't create the less powerful, didn't know them better, didn't create the jungle and certainly didn't define any standards on how life in the jungle should be lived...

It's totally different, you don't compare The Creator with the Creatures... You're not comparing apples to apples...

Besides, I might think that something is fair and you might think its not... Why should humans rule other humans... who controls what's fair and what's not fair in minds of people nowadays... It's other humans who have more power... more control of the media, more control over Education or their social standards...

This is the Unfair option... As one sahabi said to the persian general before battle "Je2na leno7'reja al nas men 3ebadaty el 3ebad ela 3ebadaty rabb el 3ebad" OR "We came to pull people out of worshiping servants to worshiping the servant's God"

Devil's Mind said...

"who controls what's fair and what's not fair in minds of people nowadays... It's other humans who have more power..." - TRUE!
But isn't religion also guilty of that part too?!

Now the toughest question for religion (in my opinion) is: Why would God create people foreknowing they will go to Hell?! If he can tell who will turn out to be good, and who will turn out to be bad... Why did he not only create the good ones?!

Also, since the Abrahamic God already knows our choices, doesn't this mean we have no choice to start with?! (A philosophical view related to determinism). Humans act according to their nature, which was not chosen by us, we are only actors in the formula of creation.

Finally, since God created evil, isn't he equally responsible (and even more responsible) for that evil in the world?! He caused this world to come, so all the injustices that take place are because of him.

M Kilany said...

No… not guilty... This is going to be the longest comment ever…

Again, what I'm saying is... This is the system that is created by the one who knows better... This is what I can say... whether people approve it or not doesn't make it right or wrong... Now there are creatures that only go to heaven, (Angels and so on) and there are others who might go to hell and heaven (who have a choice), there are others who go nowhere, like earth and plants… Who decides? The creator… Why? Because he choose his system to work that way… I think that…when you try to understand and know everything about God, including his motives by reason you underestimate him… You compare him to other humans, no less than humans… You can barely understand yourself and why you do this and that, you can’t understand why your friend is acting this way or that yet somehow you insist that you are able to understand and know everything about God who is something unlike anything you know…

Some people give the ant example… If an ant passes in front of you typing on your keyboard… would it have any idea on what’s happening? Why or how your typing affects the screen and goes to the blog, no… The same applies to a human being trying to understand God but the difference between man and God is much larger than that between an ant and a human being…

So the only way we can know of how God works is through what he tells us of himself not by reason… We can come to the conclusion that there is a God by reason but we cannot know how or why he does things by reason only…

As for the question of God knowing our choices meaning that we have no choice... this is not accurate, if someone knows what you are going to do next it doesn’t mean that he is forcing you to make this decision or that…

To put it in simpler terms, if a father gives two of his children 10 JD’s each… Knowing them he expects that the first will spend all the 10 JD’s on chocolate and stuff and he expects that the other one is going to save most of his money in his saving box… did he force them into any action… NO he knew what they were going to do but didn’t force them…

Again the example is just to simplify, God who created us knows us better than our fathers, so there is no guess work here the accuracy is 100% he choose not to force us to make our decisions… He just knows what we will do next because his knowledge is infinite…

And finally with respect to Evil, when you say God created Evil you make it sound like evil is an entity that moves into people’s minds and forces them into doing bad things… God gave you a choice, you choose if you want to be evil or not… “و هديناه النجدين

Not only that, but in Islam if you are forced to do a bad thing at gun point "there are limitations"… or if someone is mentally retarded and cannot distinguish between right and wrong… you already know what is mentioned in Hadith and the Quran about these conditions…

In such a case a human being is Not accountable…

Devil's Mind said...

"Knowing them he expects that the first will spend all the 10 JD’s on chocolate and stuff and he expects that the other one is going to save most of his money in his saving box… did he force them into any action…" - Actually, yes he did. Allow me to explain that in an overly simplistic way... Just in order to clear things out.

What has caused the first child to spend his money and his brother to save them. [In over simplicity,] we can say that the way each one was raised caused him to act that way. The process of raising children affects their choices in life, so although the father didn't force his children to the way they did, he indirectly lead them to different choices through the process of upbringing them.

In short, the environment affects the choices of people... So since we had no choice in the environment we live in, we have no choice to decide our personality or choices.

Since according to Abrahamic religions, the laws of nature were created through the Abrahamic God, this means that his choice of "natural laws" has complete influence over us.

You say that God made us. Think about it: If I made a computer, doesn't this mean I have control over its output... The output is determined by the design... So if we were designed by the Abrahamic God, then he has control over our "output"...

Q said...

I completely agree with Devil's Mind. Besides, the fact that he forces us to choose or just knows what we'll choose (whatever that means) is irrelevant. His prior knowledge means that he already knows what my completely free choices in life are going to be, and hence whether I'll end up in "heaven" or "hell", so what's the point of my existence in the first place? In a way, the whole concept reminds me of what toy soldiers are to a child. You just create some plastic pieces, you define their purpose and how they fulfill it, and then just throw them away after you had your fun....

M Kilany said...

Zeid,
You base your whole argument on the fact that we have not choice and that environment is what leads us to make our choices... This is not the case, everyone can make a choice no matter how his parents raised him... You will see twins raised in the same home and everyone makes different choices in life... Everyone has a choice when it comes to decisions they make in life... We don't have a choice in choosing when and where we are born, to which family and so on but we do have a choice when it comes to actions... e.g. do I want to earn money or steal it...

Regarding the computer example its different, if u design a software that has the ability to make its own decisions then you have no control over it... e.g. random values or A.I.

So, yes God has control over our output... but he choose to give us the freedom to "output" what we want...

Q said...

"You base your whole argument on the fact that we have not choice and that environment is what leads us to make our choices... This is not the case".... Actually that is exactly the case. If as you say, god created the whole universe, then he governs all the factors that lead to making your "free" choice. The molecules in your brain are not different than any other molecules in the universe, hence the way they interact to produce your thoughts has to be dependent on something, and if god created all things then he surely controlled the way you will think even before you start thinking (In the same way that the writers of the code that leads to random number generation controlled the output, even though it may seem random to you). The whole concept is just completely illogical....

M Kilany said...

Q,

Just to clarify again, Knowing what we will choose MEANS predicting when God does that its 100% accurate... e.g. if you predict that a storm is coming... did you force the storm to come? No you just knew...

As for the question you stated, if God knows where I will end up then what's the point... knowing the outcome of life doesn't make it hollow of all meaning, if you know how a movie ends that doesn't mean there isn't a point...

From an Islamic point of view human beings are respected and are given privileges, the ability to choose is one of them... others are putting all sorts of animals and planets in your service... for your existance...

"ولقد كرمنا بني اّدم و حملناهم في البر و البحر"

many verses speak of the value of human beings... and how other creatures are there for the benefit of human beings...

You are given a chance for immortality... whether it's in heaven or hell it's up to you to decide... in a span of your life around 60 years average... which is 0 if compared to eternity, I hate calculas :)

So anyway... there are other sides of this debate... But back to square one there is a creator, all the rest is arguments... is it fair, is it not...

M Kilany said...

Zeid, Q, Fadi, Everybody...

I'd like to think that we are heading somewhere but not sure we are...

I will resist the temptation to write any new comments.... I just hope that you will try to understand Islam's views on God, human beings and all these things before you issue your judgements based on your own understanding of the Islamic Faith... It is obvious that at many points in our discussion you had your own version and perception on Islamic teachings and it is not very accurate...

Just study it carefully before moving away from it, that's all I have to say...

I hope you'll see that I'm not arguing for the sake of argument..

Devil's Mind said...

"e.g. if you predict that a storm is coming... did you force the storm to come? No you just knew..." - Maybe I did not force the storm to come. Still, the storm had no choice but to come. You can say "something" forced the storm to come (but not necessarily you).

When you know that something will happen (ie. being able to predict with 100% accuracy) means that, what you have predicted is a necessary conclusion.

Maybe you don't see the contradiction you are making, but if humans are free to make choices then we cannot logically conclude that a God exist.

When you say that "humans can make free choices", basically you are saying: "Things can happen for no reason." (The opposite of the law of causality). So if we admit the possibility that things can happen for no reason, then it becomes possible that the world came into existence without the "first cause".

Since God is the answer to the problem of the first cause, then denying causality means denying that the problem of first cause exists, and hence denying God.

Q said...

Well said Devil's Mind, that's exactly my point.

M Kilany, you're assuming that I have an inaccurate view of Islam's teachings, but that assumption is incorrect. I used to be a muslim, I was raised as one and I understood all the teachings very well. I thought of them and compared them to other religions' teachings. In the end, I came to the conclusion that it's enough to notice the problems in the core ideas of Islam and other religions to realize that it doesn't really matter how you sugarcoat something when the base is illogical (as is the case with religion in general)....

M Kilany said...

I don't want to write comments anymore I have a life to live...

The storm is an example that is used just to simplify the case... to differentiate between a knowing and forcing... I never argued that a storm has a free will... I still have a few operational brain cells... Maybe I shouldn't have used this example, but I didn't hink it will confuse you... it is not a very accurate one since a storm is not a living being able to make choices... you can go back to the father and two kids example...

Now if I play along with your guys for a couple of minutes, based on the logic you just used... we have two scenarios its either:
1) There is no cause and effect in this universe. So things happen without a reason. (U have state earlier that you don't believe this is the case, obviously I can't see how anyone can state the opposite).
2) The other option is we are forced into every decision we make... by the universe or the creator or whatever you name it... because there is a law of cause and effect...

If you look closer you will were the problem with this logic resides...

You don't want to accept the actual fact that Human beings have the freedom to act while an piece of wood doesn't... You apply the same rules to both living creatures and material or natural phenomena. This is obviously faulty logic...

Let me give an example to simplify... when you see a ball moving in one direction... you conclude that this effect must have been caused by a cause (action), someone kicked it or something... You would never think hmmm this ball chose to move in that direction, obviously there was a cause...

However, when you see a human walking in any direction, he has the capability to make a choice and trigger action...

In short any observer would comprehend how a human being is moving from one place to the next... but it would be totally illogical to see a ball that decides to walk this way or the other without any cause or reason...

So it is irrelevant to assume that free will for humans means that the world could come into existence without the first cause...

M Kilany said...

Q,
I didn't mean it as an offense but many muslims don't know what their religion is about... They hear assumptions from people with that preach Friday prayers, sadly not every religion teatcher or Friday preacher knows Islam... some make grave mistakes in explaining Islamic teachings...

I would urge you to read on Islam and listen to scholars that know enough...

Devil's Mind said...

Both living and non-living things follow the laws of nature... I don't see any reason to make a distinction as you try to describe. A ball is a simple object. A human is a complex one (relative to the ball). A complex system is the sum of simple parts, and thus you fail to see causality on humans because they are too complex to comprehend. Once we have enough intelligence and computational power, the human is as simple as any other simple object.

RM said...

"In short, the environment affects the choices of people... So since we had no choice in the environment we live in, we have no choice to decide our personality or choices"
HOW WEAK!!